16 Apr 2024/56 min/Ryan Zurrer
MLow X Ryan Zurrer Interview
Investor and collector Ryan Zurrer on digital scarcity, his proof of artwork thesis, buying Human One and The Monument Game, and why artist inflation matters.
Ryan Zurrer arrives with over 11 years in crypto: a decade running a Brazilian renewables company, Bitcoin in 2012 via remittance rails, then first money into MakerDAO, Filecoin, Polkadot, and Dfinity, with early checks to Solana, Near, and Axie Infinity. By 2019 he was worried crypto was the same group from 2013 trading tokens back and forth, and digital art became his answer: Satoshi solving the Byzantine generals problem created provable digital scarcity, and without scarcity there is no collectability, and without collectability no value. His proof point is that the most Beeple ever got for an everyday before NFTs was about 110 dollars. He buys almost entirely direct from artists, calls the relationships the actual reward, and names Refik Anadol as close friend, portfolio artist, and collaborator.
His collecting runs on a thesis he calls proof of artwork: estimate the time, training, and computation that went into a work, the way summed computation gives Bitcoin a value floor, and buy when the price sits near that floor. Layered on top is Amy Cappellazzo's rule that only a few to half a dozen artists in any movement end up mattering, which pushes him toward pioneers: Refik is not the first AI artist but the defining one, Beeple is the Warhol of our time, and Sam Spratt will be seen as the pioneer of digital painting. He applies the math to his biggest buys: Human One (roughly 29 million dollars) priced against the 69 million the first 5,000 days fetched, about 13,800 dollars per day, versus the next 30,000 days of Beeple's practice; and The Monument Game at roughly 675,000 dollars over about 5,000 hours, or 135 dollars an hour before counting the community's observations.
The conversation also covers artist inflation, the sharpest operator segment: he has never owned Pak, runs data on supply, and asks artists to chart a four to five year inflation plan before 1OF1 takes a position, noting Warhol's inflation is zero because Warhol is dead. His life phrase, your ego is not your amigo, turns out to be a phrase MLow made a piece about a week earlier. The episode closes with the Sam Spratt solo show opening May 16 near the Venice Biennale Arsenale, a candid critique of Art Basel for keeping NFTs off the fair floor, and Zurrer asking MLow to send his portfolio so 1OF1's head of curation can follow up.
What this episode teaches
- Scarcity, then collectability, then value
Zurrer's first-principles chain: provable digital scarcity is what Bitcoin actually invented, collectability requires scarcity, and value requires collectability. That is why digital art had a 110 dollar ceiling before NFTs and a market after them.
- Proof of artwork as a valuation floor
Estimate the time, training, computation, and raw resources that went into a work, the way summed hash power gives Bitcoin a baseline. If you can buy near that floor, you are getting value. He ran this math on both Human One and The Monument Game.
- Only a handful of artists will matter
Borrowing Amy Cappellazzo's rule that each generation produces a few to half a dozen artists who matter, he concentrates on category-defining pioneers instead of spraying 50 bets per genre: Refik is not the first AI artist, but the defining one.
- Interrogate an artist's inflation plan
Before taking a significant position, 1OF1 shows artists their supply data and asks them to chart four or five years of issuance. Aggressive inflation is the primary signal an artist is not playing the long game; Warhol comparisons fail because a dead artist's inflation is zero.
- The relationship is the return
A professional investor says his ROI on collecting is relational: buying the Dick Milking Factory started a friendship with Beeple, and Human One is a 30-plus year journey with a best friend. Long-standing compounding relationships are the most valuable thing he holds.
- Your ego is not your amigo
Zurrer repeats the phrase to himself and his team about five times a day. The most successful artists he works with, Beeple and Refik, stayed humble through fame: same house, same clothes, same car. If they can be humble, you can be.
- Purity predates the money
The top digital artists got in when there was no money in digital art, doing client work like rave backgrounds and websites to fund the art they loved. That purity of practice is what endeared Beeple to people through 16 years of everydays.
- Buy the wedge, then exhibit it
Zurrer treats major purchases as instruments: Human One and the Venice exhibition of The Monument Game exist to force the capital A art world to accept digital artists into the canon, and showing work to the most discerning critics is how the practice levels up.
The conversation, topic by topic
From renewables to the rabbit hole
Zurrer spent a decade in renewables running a Brazilian company, started using Bitcoin in 2012 as rails to send money home for a cottage, then became an early investor: first money into MakerDAO, Filecoin, Polkadot, and Dfinity, early checks to Solana, Near, and Axie Infinity.
Why digital art was crypto's real use case
In 2019 and early 2020 he was warning that crypto was the same cohort from 2013 trading tokens back and forth with nothing beyond speculation. Digital artists finally commercializing their work was the use case that mattered: the pre-NFT ceiling for a Beeple everyday was about 110 dollars.
Disintermediation actually delivered
The vast majority of his collecting happens directly between collector and artist, with no galleries or advisors. He calls it the first real-world case of the mass disintermediation that drew people to Bitcoin in 2012, and the relationships, like his friendship with Refik Anadol, are the reward.
Proof of artwork and pioneerism
His thesis: reason from the resources in a work (he points to the GPUs required to render Refik's pieces hanging in his hall) to a baseline value, then focus on category definers using Amy Cappellazzo's few-artists-matter rule, guided by mentors and the team around the 1OF1 collection.
The three anchor artists
Refik Anadol, called the artist of the moment by The Economist, with the Serpentine exhibition up, doing what Zurrer calls a public service against AI fear. Beeple as the Warhol of our time, a pop culture commentator through the everydays and Human One's chapters. Sam Spratt, innovator of digital painting, telling the Lucy story and pioneering community involvement through observations on The Monument Game.
MLow in Beeple's orbit
MLow had his art shown at Beeple's studio in December and learned that week he would return in May, joining the Deathmatch, likely producing a live piece. Zurrer notes only crypto culture gets a room of artists creating side by side in one day, something a Damien Hirst and Jeff Koons generation never did.
Artist inflation
Asked about Pak-style artists who printed heavily last bull and left, Zurrer says he has never owned Pak, pays close attention to inflation, and counts roughly 1,291 or 1,292 total Beeple pieces in float versus artists with 20,000 to 50,000 piece drops. 1OF1 asks artists for multi-year inflation plans; community-priced drops are fine, but carelessness about supply kills his interest.
The Warhol and Picasso counterarguments
MLow cites an Artnome article arguing big supply does not hurt top artists, pointing to Warhol at the auction houses. Zurrer's reply: Warhol is dead so his inflation is zero, and Picasso's roughly 100,000 pieces coexist with 100,000 forgotten abstract expressionists, plus death and 40 years. Living artists are judged on what they issue this year.
Humility and the week MLow is having
MLow shares that he won a top 17 placement and a large bounty in an AI competition for Optimism, and is deliberately keeping himself grounded. Zurrer describes Beeple and Refik questioning their own decisions constantly; Beeple lives in the same house and remains the same person who did everydays before the Time 100. MLow adds Claire Silver's tweet about still wearing her high school clothes.
MLow's practice and archive
Prompted by Zurrer, MLow tells his own story: childhood cancer made art his therapy and daily practice, he photographs or creates every day, and after cementing his voice he began minting his 2018 archive at the end of last year, collected by Robness and Pindar Van Arman, artists he met through these interviews and now calls mentors.
Why Human One
Zurrer did the math: 69 million dollars for the first 5,000 days is about 13,800 dollars per day, so what are the next 30,000 days of Beeple's practice worth? He bought after collecting the Dick Milking Factory, still his favorite Beeple, and frames the roughly 29 million dollar purchase as a 30 to 40 year journey with a friend. Human One is on chapter 4, technically far beyond chapter 1, with steady museum demand.
The Monument Game and Venice
A highly aligned group shares The Monument Game, bought for roughly 675,000 dollars against about 5,000 hours of Sam Spratt's work, 135 dollars per hour before adding hundreds of community observations. They are funding a solo show just outside the Venice Biennale Arsenale, opening May 16, built by Lucas and the 1OF1 team, to put Sam in front of the most discerning eyes in art.
Art Basel and NFTs
Zurrer confirms no NFTs are sold on the Art Basel floor in Miami, Paris, or Basel, only a sponsored booth outside, and describes a gallery's annual Refik booth with a sign reading no NFT. He says the new director of digital at Art Basel is smart and working with one of his mentors on digital strategy, and predicts even Basel loyalists will admit they should have sold NFTs from the start. MLow notes his friend Olive Allen sold the first NFT at Art Basel around 2020 or 2021.
Flipping the script
Zurrer ends by asking MLow for a portfolio and offering a follow-up with 1OF1's head of curation Lucas, turning the interview into a curatorial lead for the host.
In their words
“Without scarcity you can't have collectability, and without collectability you don't have ascribing value.”
Ryan Zurrer“It kind of feels like the same group of us since 2013, trading these tokens back and forth between each other.”
Ryan Zurrer“If his first five thousand days as an artist were worth 69 million, what are the next 30,000 days worth?”
Ryan Zurrer“Their ego is not their amigo.”
Ryan Zurrer“The art world really doesn't understand the depth of Sam's practice. There's a chance we may shock the world here.”
Ryan Zurrer“I have to create in order to just survive. It's just part of me.”
MLowCite this conversation
Ryan Zurrer in conversation with MLow, "MLow X Ryan Zurrer Interview," The MLow Show, 16 Apr 2024. https://show.mlow.xyz/e/2024-04-16-mlow-x-ryan-zurrer-interview.html. Quoted from a machine transcript.
Quotations come from machine transcripts. Check wording against the audio before republishing.